M5.2: Interview mit der Journalistin Charlotte Ming
Jonas Schmid 13.08.2024
M5.2: Interview mit der Journalistin Charlotte Ming
In unseren Schulbüchern haben wir auch etwas über Chinas Jahrhundert der Demütigung – diese Periode ausländischer kolonialer Invasionen in China und die Katastrophen, die dem Land und der chinesischen Bevölkerung angetan wurden – gelernt. Als ich in die Schule ging, wusste ich, dass Deutschland Teil der Acht-Nationen-Allianz war, die 1900 während des so genannten „Boxerkrieges“ in China einfiel. Aber in unserer Erinnerung sind immer noch die Briten, die Franzosen, die Japaner oder vielleicht die Amerikaner am schlimmsten. Es gibt also eine paradoxe Erinnerung an die deutsche Kolonialgeschichte in Qingdao. Die deutschen Bauten dort werden sehr gut geschützt und gleichzeitig steht vor der Stadtverwaltung ein Denkmal mit dem Namen „Maiwind“. Es ist ein Denkmal, das an die Bewegung des 4. Mai erinnert, ein Studentenprotest, der die moderne chinesische Geschichte veränderte. Auslöser war der Vertrag von Versailles, in dem Japan die Rechte Deutschlands in Shandong zugesprochen wurden, nachdem Deutschland Qingdao im Ersten Weltkrieg verloren hatte.
Ich habe festgestellt, dass es verschiedene Arten des Erinnerns gibt. Nachdem ich in der taz einen Artikel über die deutsche Kolonialvergangenheit in Qingdao geschrieben hatte, erhielt ich viele E-Mails von Leuten, die mir sagten, dass sie über die koloniale Vergangenheit Qingdaos Bescheid wissen. Viele Menschen, die sich bei mir gemeldet haben, waren entweder wegen deutscher Geschäftsverbindungen in Qingdao oder ihre Väter oder Großväter hatten am „Boxerkrieg“ teilgenommen oder waren Soldaten in Qingdao gewesen. Es gibt also sicherlich private Erinnerungen in einzelnen Familien. Aber die, die sich noch an diese Familiengeschichten erinnern, werden jetzt alt, und ich bin mir nicht sicher, ob die jüngere Generation daran interessiert ist.
Ich habe auch mit Aktivist*innen und Menschen gesprochen, die sich für Veränderungen im Umgang mit der deutschen kolonialen Vergangenheit einsetzen. Es gibt verschiedene postkoloniale Organisationen wie zum Beispiele Dekoloniale und Decolonize Berlin sowie Organisationen, die asiatische Deutsche in Deutschland vertreten (zum Beispiel der Verein korientation), die die Kolonialgeschichte in Bezug zu Rassismus gegenüber Asiat*innen und Asiendeutschen setzen. Es gibt also definitiv viele verschiedene Ansätze in diesem Bereich. Es gibt allerdings zu diesem Thema immer noch nicht viele chinesische Stimmen. Und ich frage mich auch, warum.
Wir müssen verstehen, wie Ideologien von Rassismus, Überlegenheit und Nationalismus diese vergangenen Ereignisse, einschließlich Kolonialismus und Holocaust, begründeten. Es ist also wichtig, darüber nachzudenken und zu verstehen, was die Menschen und die Gesellschaft dazu gebracht hat, bestimmte Dinge zu tun, und in der Lage zu sein, ähnliche Entwicklungen heute zu erkennen.
Es ist außerdem wichtig, die Vielfalt unter den Schüler*innen in Deutschland heute anzuerkennen. Der Unterricht sollte sich nicht nur an weiße deutsche Schüler*innen richten, deren Vorfahren möglicherweise in das Naziregime oder den deutschen Kolonialismus verwickelt waren, sondern auch Wege finden, wie man vielfältige Schüler*innenschaft empowern kann. Damit wir uns gegenseitig auf Augenhöhe begegnen und uns gegenseitig bestärken und unterstützen, Dinge zu verändern.
China-Schul-Akademie: Hello Charlotte, could you quickly introduce yourself?
Charlotte Ming: I’m Charlotte Ming, a journalist, writer and visual editor based in Berlin. I have been researching the history of German colonialism in Qingdao, my hometown, but as well as in China in general, and how people remember this history both in China and in Germany.
China-Schul-Akademie: So first of all, how is the German colonial past remembered in Qingdao?
Charlotte Ming: This is the most complicated question. I have the experience of growing up right in the middle of the former German quarter, being surrounded by a lot of German landmarks and also drinking the Qingdao beer. Also, I attended a high school founded by the German sinologist and missionary Richard Wilhelm. I was definitely aware of this history in a pretty much in-your-face way. At the same time, thinking about it now, I actually didn’t really know many details, and I would say that in Qingdao a lot of people probably have a similar vague understanding about its German colonial past.
We also learned in our school books about China’s century of humiliation. This period of foreign colonial invasions in China and the disasters that were brought on to the country and the Chinese population. Growing up, I knew Germany was a part of the Eight Nation Alliance that invaded China in 1900 during the so-called “Boxer” war. But in our memory it’s still the British, the French, the Japanese or maybe the Americans, being the worst. So there’s a paradoxical remembrance of the German colonial history in Qingdao. You’ll see the German landmarks being protected really well, at the same time, you will see in front of the city government this monument called the Wind of May. It’s a monument that commemorates the May 4th Movement, a student protest that changed modern Chinese history. It was sparked by the Treaty of Versailles granting the rights of Germany in Shandong to Japan, after Germany had lost Qingdao in WWI.
China-Schul-Akademie: If you now go back to Qingdao, has the way you engage with the city and its past changed compared to your childhood days?
Charlotte Ming: Because I’m researching this history as a long-term project, when I’m back now, I’m actively looking for traces and digging deeper into the history of those places, instead of just seeing them as they are. If you are a visitor in Qingdao, quite often people would tell you go visit this and that that was built by Germany. But not more than that. Now I can put them into the historical context and also think about the racial segregation imposed on the Chinese population that happened in Qingdao at that time and what was built for who and used by whom.
China-Schul-Akademie: Thank you so much for your insights on the Chinese side of remembrance. You have also traveled widely throughout Germany and interviewed a lot of people that have some kind of connection to the German colonial past in Qingdao. What is your take on the German remembrance of this part of history?
Charlotte Ming: When I first came to Germany five years ago, just from the people I met, I thought that very few Germans know about this history, and for me it was a bit strange because, as I said, in Qingdao this German past is sort of in your face. In Germany, however, I learned that a lot of people don’t even know where Qingdao is. That also made me question––have people just not engaged with this topic at all in school? But then, as I talked to more people over time, and as the societal debate on German colonial history changed throughout the years, there has been more and more discussion about this. Initially the focus was on the former African colonies, but now there’s also more talk about China, about Qingdao.
I’ve noticed that there are different pockets of ways of remembrance. When I wrote an article in the taz about the German colonial past in Qingdao, I got many emails from people telling me they do know about this history. Many people who reached out to me either have been in Qingdao because they have German business relations there or their fathers or grandfathers participated in a boxer war or were soldiers in Qingdao. There is definitely private remembrance running through families. But the generations who still remember the family tales are getting old now, and I’m not sure whether the younger generation is interested in this.
I’ve also talked with activists and people advocating for change. Some have been working on the topic for a while, and some didn’t know about this history in the beginning, was really surprised by it, and now want to confront this past. And there have been different postcolonial organizations such as Dekoloniale and Decolozonie Berlin as well as organizations that represent Asian Germans in Germany (for example korientation), connecting colonial history with racism towards Asians and Asian-Germans. So there are definitely a lot of different approaches to this. One thing is that there are still not a lot of Chinese voices in this. And I’m also wondering why.
China-Schul-Akademie: You yourself have also worked on an audio walk for high school students in Berlin where you tried to make them engage with traces of the colonial past. So I would be very interested to hear about your wishes for the future of how to engage with the German colonial past.
Charlotte Ming: I would definitely hope for more exposure—more interest and more concrete stuff like teaching materials for people to be able to learn about this. At the same time, I wish for a way of teaching that’s not only giving students the information of what happened during this time, but also making them really look at the continuity of colonialism and its implication for our current world in terms of anti-asian racism, maybe even in terms of German-China relations because for a long time, this relationship was very asymmetrical.
We need to understand how the ideologies of racial superiority, racism, nationalism motivated these past events, including colonialism and the Holocaust. So It’s important to reflect and understand what drove people and society to do certain things and to be able to catch that happening today.
It’s important to recognize the very diverse student body that we have today in Germany. Lessons should not be aimed at only white German students, whose ancestors may have been involved in the Nazi regime or German colonialism, but should also consider ways to empower a diverse student population. To look at each other in an equal way and to empower each other to make changes.
China-Schul-Akademie: So as a high school student what would be possible ways to to act for change?
Charlotte Ming: The importance of education is sparking curiosity in young people. In my school days in China, I didn’t have much of that because we spent way too many hours studying and memorizing facts for exams. So it’s important to be curious, ask questions, not be satisfied with the status quo. And that’s what we tried to do in the audio walk – to encourage people to look at the hidden colonial histories behind the street names and inspire them to ask questions about streets in their own neighborhood, after what and whom the streets have been named and for what reason. Once you have the knowledge, you can decide whether the names are justified, if not, find out what you can do to make changes, for example.
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